Is Microsoft Evil?

by Jacob 2. June 2007 12:10

Face of Evil I've been considering this post for a while now, but have been afraid to actually write it. So here's the thing: I've noticed that most of those who talk about how evil Microsoft is don't bother supporting that assertion. They tend to assume the rightness of their position and hence the wrongness of whatever it is that Microsoft has done. Microsoft stifles technology! Microsoft is a monopoly! Microsoft engages in unfair business practices!

Do they really?

No Consumers Were Harmed in Making This Software

There's a couple of problems with the whole monopoly thing. For one, at least in the U.S., being or having a monopoly isn't itself illegal—using the position of a monopoly to harm consumers is the illegal part. Now, some courts, and popular opinion, assumes that the fact of a monopoly is, itself, harmful to consumers, but that has never been proven to my satisfaction. Indeed, many of those who testified against Microsoft in past years rested on this assumption by equating harm to them as harm to the consumer.

Here's a tip: the fact that a company cannot compete and goes out of business isn't really evidence that consumers were, in any way, harmed. Let's make this concrete with an example. The fact that Microsoft started giving Internet Explorer away for free and that doing so tanked their competitors in the browser market doesn't actually harm consumers. After all, consumers are now getting something for free that companies wanted to charge money for. If Microsoft began charging money for browsers after their competitors tanked, well, that'd be a different story. At that point, you'd have to ask if the new price for browsers was higher than it would have been with competitors still in business. The thing is, Microsoft didn't do so. Indeed, if those whining about Microsoft got their way, we'd be charged money for browsers today and that, in my opinion, is far more harmful to the consumer than Microsoft's decision that something should be free.

But here's the thing: Microsoft isn't even a monopoly. Seriously. Let's take the primary definition of a monopoly from reference.com.

mo·nop·o·ly      /məˈnɒpəli/ [muh-nop-uh-lee]
–noun, plural -lies.

1. exclusive control of a commodity or service in a particular market, or a control that makes possible the manipulation of prices.

See that. The key to having a monopoly is having exclusive control or enough control that makes possible the manipulation of prices. It's obvious that Microsoft doesn't have exclusive control, but the fact of the matter is that Microsoft doesn't have the power to manipulate prices, either. While Microsoft can determine the prices they charge for their own products, doing so does nothing to control the prices of anybody else's product.

That's because software is inherently uncontrollable.

The reason for this is because you cannot control the supply of software in any compulsory way. Unlike any other product, software can be reproduced at will by anybody who owns the rights to the program (and by many who don't). You could gain a monopoly over practically any other product if you can somehow control the supply of a key component. Software doesn't have a key component crucial for its replication. If every owner of Microsoft Vista wanted to migrate to OS X tomorrow, there's nothing that Microsoft could do to hamper Apple from creating as many copies of OS X as they wanted to create and charging whatever price Apple wanted to charge (including no price at all) for those copies.

Note that I'm relying on the distinction that controlling the price for a product is not the same as controlling how much you can charge successfully. Microsoft gave IE away for free. That rather hampered people being able to charge money for comparable software. It did not alter the ability of those companies to charge whatever price they wanted to for competing browsers. You cannot actually be said to be capable of manipulating price until you can move it up or down at your whim. The ability to move prices down is inherent in the marketplace and your ability to compete in it. The ability to move prices up is the key to being an actual monopoly.

It Isn't Fair!

The second largest complaint is that Microsoft engages in unfair practices to privilege their software because they "own" the OS. Now, I haven't been a fan of the "it's not fair" defense since my kids grew up enough to employ it. I personally stopped expecting life to be fair a long time ago. The thing is, I'm enough of a libertarian that as long as all parties to a transaction are informed and consenting, I don't have much problem with them working out whatever deals they think they can.

Still, you can't deny that Microsoft likes its shady deals. I certainly wouldn't dream of denying it. In fact, I'm all for exposing those deals as soon as they're known, and the sooner the better. Does Microsoft have a deal with Dell that includes Dell anteing up for every PC purchased? Doesn't matter to me, but by all means, get the news out if you discover it to be true. I mean, as far as I can see, Dell wouldn't be doing so if the net cost to them weren't cheaper than doing it the other way. As long as Dell is able to compete in its markets for computers, I'm not really that interested. After all, if Dell raises the price of computers that don't have some version of a Microsoft OS, you have to know that they'll get hammered by their competitors who aren't trying to recoup such costs.

That's the magic of capitalism. You only get to set the price, you don't get to set the demand. If somebody else can do it cheaper, then they'll come in and prove it in the only way that matters—by offering their product at a lower price.

Does Microsoft sometimes fail to, ahem, document their complete APIs for external sources? That certainly appears to have been the case in the past. Insofar as they might have claimed to have documented the entire API, they have violated the law and should be held accountable for doing so. Outside of such a claim, I don't see how we have any standing to demand otherwise. Not that we shouldn't ask for better, but there's no cause to be slinging charges of moral depravity. You can't simply decide that a company has to release their full API when they haven't agreed to do so and expect to be taken seriously. Certainly, nobody expects the same from Apple. Fortunately, one consequence of all those shady deals makes Microsoft the most scrutinized software company on the planet so its ability to hide things is, shall we say, limited.

Scrabbling for the Top

Microsoft's dominance of the software market seems like it must have a monopoly somewhere. The fact that we can't detect it doesn't mean it isn't there, right? After all, random chance should dictate that some companies would successfully compete with Microsoft and their dominance would wane.

Ah. But since when did random chance have anything to do with markets, let alone software? There is, in fact, one thing that all successful companies do to become (and stay) successful: they attack #1. Indeed, those companies that rise to the first position and later fall always do so because they stop attacking #1. You see this with Sun. There was a period when they owned the corporate server market. The thing is, they stopped attacking themselves. Their resting gave their competitors an opportunity to come in and steal their lunch. Dell and HP saw that Sun's prices hadn't dropped even though the cost of hardware was falling steadily. They saw an opportunity and Sun is left wondering what happened. The same thing is happening with Oracle in the database server market and Sun (again) with the hot development language, Java.

And that's what has allowed Microsoft to dominate the OS and Office Application spaces for so long—they haven't stopped attacking #1, even when it's them. Microsoft, for some reason, has mastered the paranoia and internalized the lesson that they are only a couple of motivated geeks in a garage away from the #2 slot. Witness Office 2007 and the ribbon control. Microsoft could easily have sat on their dominance in the Office Application space. They didn't. Time will tell if that innovation makes their product better, but so far, it seems that it has.

The Beauty of Creative Destruction

Which brings me to the software development space. Microsoft has done here what they do in all the markets they come to dominate: stake out some initial territory and then expand to become the best value in that space (note that I said value, not software, or price, or technology). That's how they continue to dominate in business programming even though they charge money and the new kids on the block don't. Yeah, you can do some interesting things with Ruby on Rails, Java, or Eclipse. I'm not denying the achievements of others.

All I'm saying is that for me, the business developer, Microsoft makes the development decision an extremely easy one. For a paltry $2k a year, I can own everything Microsoft produces in one package—OS, IDE, servers, and Office Applications. I don't have to find out which distro is most popular. I don't have to research GNome vs. KDE vs. Xfce. And I don't have to browse a single Man page or HowTo.

Not that I wouldn't move if Microsoft stopped anteing up, but they don't seem to be doing so right now. Whether it's IronPython or Silverlight, or even Ruby, Microsoft shows no signs of letting others come in and eat their lunch. This is part of what makes it easy to be a Microsoft developer. If a good idea crops up in a space not currently dominated by Microsoft, you can bet that it won't be long before it's available in my dev environment either as a third-party add-in or from Microsoft itself.

The Wise Use of Power

All of that euphoria aside, Microsoft does have its problems. With great power comes great responsibility and Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly on ethical people in positions of power (uh, the "duh" is understood there, right?). Undercutting NUnit was a waste of community effort and good will. And what's happened with TestDriven.net is a bigger one. Indeed, with the details we have about the TestDriven.net case, it's obvious that Jason Weber at Microsoft behaved like an arrogant jerk and he deserves to take heat for it and Microsoft does as well.

Being a complacent consumer leads to complacent companies and products that never improve. So by all means, give Microsoft hell when they ask for it.

All I'm saying is that Microsoft isn't the dominant force it is in the markets it dominates because people are stupid. Any position that concludes that people don't know what is best for them is a position that I'm becoming increasingly impatient with. Brow-beating developers who don't kowtow to your party line isn't going to actually win you converts in whatever crusade you've decided to embark upon. By all means, give me your best pitch, I want to hear it. But don't assume that I don't have perfectly valid reasons for the choices I've made and even if I am a lazy bastard who couldn't program my way out of a wet paper bag, you are probably not best served by mocking me for it. Although, come to that, I sort of ask for it when I call OSS folk cry-babies with no justification...

Tags: , , ,

Programming | Software

Comments


 LKM 
June 6. 2007 03:16
LKM
How about "they engaged in blatantly illegal business practices in order to destroy their competition"?

It's not like they were not found guilty of this by a US court.


June 6. 2007 05:07
Syd
For me, the incident which summed-up MS was Genuine Advantage. It wasn't the fact that they did it, which I guess was fair enough (what with it being their software 'n'all) but their spokesperson on BBC Radio telling us that "Customers have been crying out for a way to know if their copy of Windows is genuine." This was a breath-taking "big lie", worthy of Goebels, and it was the "last straw" that made me shut down my ten-year-old Hotmail account and buy a Mac.


June 6. 2007 08:07
Rob Crowther
> The fact that Microsoft started giving Internet Explorer away for free

No, they didn't, they subsumed the cost of the browser into the cost of the OS.


June 11. 2007 13:03
Markus
@Syd: the guy you mean is spelled "Goebbels", and you should really be very sure about what you are comparing, if you compare something with him. If there are not millions of deaths, comparing something as "worthy of Goebbels" is just like spitting in the face of all  of Goebbles victims.

@Rob: so you are saying that the OS was more expensive to the customer after the browser was added? I don't think that was the case...


June 18. 2007 07:37
Tom
Dear Mr So and So Smile just taking you up on this quote;
"...take out some initial territory and then expand to become the best value in that space (note that I said value, not software, or price, or technology)."
Re: The beauty of creative destruction.

I would just like to say this simply applying the 'beauty of capitalism' like this doesn't really make as much logical sense as you think.

Yes my point does come back to ignorance; but it's the self-perpetuating ignorance that is fostered by this (perhaps no inherently evil) giant. It is simply sad that many students simply cannot function 'normally' at Univsersity while Law students and Med students all pay for their wizz bang computers with in-built intentional incompatibility issues with the previous versions of Office 2003 and previous etc... etc...

Forgive me for reiterating the ignorance issue, but how are people supposed to find the patch that comes for Office 2003 on the internet to enable reading for new versions;
The real question is to me;
How come Microsoft Office doesn't have the decency to code future documents in a marginally intelligent way in which to allow previous versions to work? That would retain long-term users...

I dunno... all of this is blah blah to me because all the Open Office stuff (etc. etc.) will hopefully clean this up. I just think that many users who aren't computer advanced miss out A LOT. Not due to stupidity as you like to say but due to lack of access to knowledge only gained by the computer generation such as yourself, the rest of you folk and myself.

Just a small bone to pick I tihnk; but a fair one...


June 18. 2007 15:57
Jacob
@Tom: I'm not sure if you forgot to make a point, but I can't really pick out what you're trying to say here. Some points though:

1) I never call capitalism beautiful. The word appears only once in the article and beautiful isn't anywhere in the vicinity. I call creative destruction beautiful, but there's no reason you can't apply principles of creative destruction in any economic system and I take pains to lay out my logic in some detail. If you have trouble with that logic, you're going to have to spell out why. Just saying it doesn't make as much logical sense as I seem to think isn't doing either of us a service. If my illogic is so obvious, please, by all means, point it out.

2) I've no idea what your jag about students is responding to. I never mention students, law, medical, or otherwise. Not that I have anything against students, I'm just puzzled by their appearance here.

3) Finding a patch on the internet for a Microsoft product is as dead-dog simple as anything is on the internet. Indeed, if you can find illegal music on the internet, finding a MS patch is a cake-walk. I'd be willing to bet that the "many students" from your previous paragraph can do both.

4) File compatibility is fine as long as you don't introduce new functionality to documents. Office 2007 introduced new functionality to documents. That new functionality is mainly felt in the business environment and has to do with versioning and security in accessing outside data sources, but it's new functionality nonetheless and hence a new file format is needed. MS goes to some lengths to give you options both in releasing a patch for Office 2003 and in giving Office 2007 users the option to save in a 2003-compatible format. I don't think there's much else they could do about it and whining that they could/should have made the files entirely cross-compatible without taking on the difficulties of new functionality doesn't reflect poorly on Microsoft...

5) Open Office is interesting and all, but adding a competitor to the file compatibility mix isn't exactly a simplification.

6) No worries about picking bones with me, large or small. I want people to pick bones, that's why I post things in public and enable comments. By all means, pick your best. Just don't expect me to be convinced by mere assertions and generalizations. Support your point so we both have something to work with.


June 28. 2007 13:28
Wulf
My problems with Microsoft are the generalized problems with unfettered capitalism.  Capitalism is by far the best system, but I think Keynes had it more right than Smith.

Laissez Faire leads to giant corporations with more than enough power to stifle competition and all the motivation to do so.  Healthy competition not only fosters lower prices, but also innovation.  That's the only problem I have with Microsoft is their at-times illegal and unethical business practices as pointed out by LKM.

Your point about deals among consenting adults is valid as far as it goes, but it assumes arms-length dealing.  Stupidity is not the only factor--there is also coercion, economic or otherwise.  Any time a corporation gets big enough and powerful enough, meaningful competition goes out the window.  Do you really think Apple could compete if it were a newcomer?  It would be squashed as MS has squashed so many others.

Thus the problems of Microsoft are endemic to a laissez faire system.  For capitalism to be healthy, there need to be regulations designed to foster healthy and meaningful competition.

That said, I don't despise MS.  I prefer Firefox to IE, but I use Windows and Office, and I'm fairly satisfied with them.  The bad taste they leave in my mouth is the bad taste of an economy run rampant with powerful corporations at the expense of small business owners, competition and labor, if not consumers.


June 28. 2007 23:59
Jacob
Wulf: I've never argued for Laissez Faire capitalism. This is a straw-man argument that implies that I want no regulation at all and that's simply not the case. In so far as Microsoft violates the law, they should be held accountable for it. Being held accountable for people thinking they broke the law, or people claiming their actions were "flagrant" or "blatant" or "evil" is going a touch too far, though.

As for Keynes, ugh. The man's theories of government economic policy are all based on neglecting the cost of collecting and distributing those funds, not to mention the fraud inherent in concentrating it. I much prefer Hayek and Friedman as an accurate assessment of government activity.


 dude 
February 3. 2008 23:11
dude
Creating programs to measure an employee's production, creating software to mesure a person's
ability's based on heart rate, facial expression,pulse,etc..to measuse weather or not to fire an individual based a persons mental abilities This does not sound like the work of some one who has corrupted power? or an evil empire?


 naetuir 
July 15. 2008 22:42
naetuir
You haven't met the right people, if those that assert "Microsoft is Evil" and then watch it blow up in their face as you don't make the same assumption with them.

Microsoft is a software giant. They take part in very pesky things like EEE (see wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace%2C_extend%2C_and_extinguish ), hardware to software obfuscation (anyone remember WinModems?), bend over backwards to support such technologies as DRM (which basically is what Vista's 'improvements' on XP are), and more.

That's not to say that Apple is much (if any) better (using them as the anti example, as they're the only other major player in the ball game).

The only real "option" out there is Linux, for desktop. And truth be told.. My mom still can't use it without significant, regular help. So despite it's sometimes unsavory nature.. Microsoft and Apple are both evil. But they are a necessary evil.

Until someone comes along with a better solution to the problems at hand, that really takes off, and my mom can use without having to look at command lines (ever).. M$ will get to continue their evilness unabated. Smile


July 16. 2008 14:20
Jacob
@naetuir: You're going to have to define evil, then, because you're being a little ambiguous here. For example, I don't see EEE as evil. Realize that the last E in EEE is a change in target so it's not like they "destroy" the standards they have embraced. As I said in the above post, I don't equate the demise of competitors as evil. Consumers benefit from Microsoft's embrace and extend policy and consumers don't suffer from the exterminate part.

Here's the thing: the reason consumers aren't harmed is because the moment a consumer suffers, Microsoft opens up an opportunity for their competition. Microsoft is smart enough to understand that which is why they don't act like a monopoly (from the consumer's perspective) no matter how much market share they accumulate.

Also as I said above, I'm not saying that Microsoft is pristine and that when they overstep their bounds they shouldn't be called to task. Legally if/when laws are broken. I just think that calling them evil needs more justification than has ever been brought to bear.

Finally, consumers are making their voices heard with regards to DRM. Amazon's music store is the only one that gets my business any more (and I make sure they do get business from me) because they have DRM-free music. That's how marketplaces work. Companies that work against there customers have a tendency to fail. Markets aren't perfect and there are time delays involved, but in the end, they work perfectly well and without the need to engage in moral recriminations that simply don't survive scrutiny in detail.


 Dan 
November 6. 2008 19:46
Dan
Every one googles Market cap is closing in on msft. quit supporting them and buying their products google will be on top


 Tom 
March 22. 2009 18:27
Tom
A lot of people dislike internet explorer not because it was free, but because it was because it was forcibly integrated with windows

At the same time, microsoft pushed it's hardest to integrate internet explorer into products that did not need it (such as microsoft office)

At the time (around 1997) of the integration Microsoft practically owned the OS market, and used that dominance to crush the internet browser market

And now 95B/98/ME/NT/2k all have out of date browsers integrated into them with no obvious way to remove them


March 23. 2009 20:10
Jacob
@Tom: What's your point? Where were consumers harmed in this story? Seems to me like we got a product for free that people originally wanted to charge money for. And whether or not you can remove IE is a made-up problem. Don't forget that even though IE came with the OS, there has never been a time when there weren't at least three web browsers available to anyone who wanted one. Yeah, competitors had to scramble a bit, but that's a good thing.

And my broader point is proven by developments since: if MS fails to meet the needs of a market segment, their competitors are happy to use it as a selling point for their own product. Witness Google's Chrome.


United States David 
May 10. 2009 02:13
David
Yes Microsoft is evil.  Microsoft has collected money indirectly from millions of computer users.  75% of computer owners recognize that murder is always wrong no matter is the laws of the country allow it.  Microsoft does not care what they think, all they want is to take the money any way they can get it and then turn that money over to Planned Parenthood, a murder for hire chain store.  

Microsoft has so far given over 40 billion dollars to a group of serial killers that specifically targets Black children for death as part of a eugenics program.  

We are fast approaching 5000 legal murders in the United States EVERYDAY thanks to Bill Gates and his company, Microsoft.  We saw a case in Florida where babies were born alive and allowed to live for several hours before being knifed and thrown into the garbage.  

In the State of Washington a Planned Parenthood infanticide center was accepting the remains of children murdered by their parents and putting them into the garbage with the babies killed locally at the murder center to prevent the police from investigating.  

Now that Washington has approved the murder of the elderly as well we look forward to seeing Planned Parenthood accepting the remains of murdered old people to be included in their trash.  

Not only is Microsoft Evil but Bill Gates must take his orders directly from Satan himself.  Hopefully we will not have to wait much longer for Bill to go and see his master.  I think the best way for this to happen is for either his wife or his children to decide that they don't need him anymore now that he is retired.  They should take him down to Planned Parenthood and strap him down.  Then the serial killer helpers will shave the back of his head and the serial killer dressed as a doctor will drill a whole through Bill's skull.  Bill does not need any pain killers as we all know that "non persons" don't feel pain (though of course clams do if humans eat them).  Once the hole is done, the serial killer inserts a plastic tube and begins to vacuum out Bill's brain matter.  Bill will die at some point during this but we are not done yet.  Then serial killer's helpers will chop Bill into as small of pieces that they can.  These pieces will then be vacuumed up and go into a collection bag.  I suppose they will have to use a bit larger one then they normally do when they kill Black kids.  Once the collection bag is full of Bill's matter, it is thrown into the garbage not be be thought of again and the Gates family is free from the wait of an unwanted member, no longer useful, and unproductive member that will only be a burden on the next generation.  

Now for myself, I am against all forms of violence.  I believe in gun control, disbanding the military, even forcing men to go through DV classes before they get married.  But if we are to put freedom of "choice" above the right to live then well violence should be everywhere and we see that it is.  If a man beats his wife, well that was his choice and we should trust him to make the right choice and let him beat/kill his wife if he wants to.  If someone wants to fly airplanes into buildings and kill thousands of people, well so what, that was their choice and we can't deny them their choice.  I am just waiting for someone to make the choice to go down to Capital Hill and shoot the whole lot of politicians, Obama included and the Supreme court.  We should not be anti-choice right.  


May 10. 2009 09:27
Jacob
Thank you, David, for the nuttiest collection of logical fallacies to date on this blog.


United States David 
May 14. 2009 02:15
David
It looks like someone has forgotten what he asked.  Is Microsoft Evil?  Yes.  You ask for justification.  Normally if a person or company breaks the law to the tune that Microsoft has then that company or person is shunned by the public and they are declared evil.  This is not just public opion but objective reality.  

Microsoft as a company and its leaders as individuals have been found guilty of breaking the law.  This is not just true in the United States but also true in most other countries where they do a significant business.  Is the Mafia evil?  Yes, they break the law where ever they do busisness.  Is Microsoft evil?  Yes, they break the law everywhere the do business.  

Besides man made laws layed down by governments, there is also the natural law which most non English speaking countries accept as higher than coded law.  There does not need to be a government with a legislature to codify that murder is illegal.  Murder is always illegal even if the laws of a government contradict this.  The government is wrong, not the natural law.  Why was slavery wrong?  It went against the natural law.  Why is racism wrong?  It goes against the natural law.  This is not hard stuff to figure out.  

Besides Microsofts breach of the national coded laws of the United States and many other countries, they have also broken the natural law.  Supporting child murder is always wrong.  This more than anything else makes Microsoft evil.  It does not matter if they make good or bad products.  It does not matter if they are nice or a bully.  Microsoft supports the murder and dismemberment of children, specifically ethnic minority children.  There is no way to redeem a company after this.  Regardless of the laws of the United States, someone would be acting well within the demands of the natural law as a law enforcement agent to shut the company down, sieze all products and pull them from the market and put all the employees on trial for first degree murder and afterwards give them all the death penalty.  

Every five copies of Microsoft Office that is sold helps to pay for the murder of a child.  That is more than enough reason to move to using StarOffice.  If a student of mine sends me a paper in .doc format, I fail that student no questions asked.  It says right there in the syllabus that they are required to have StarOffice or another program that correctly writes the ODF formant.  

Besides, StarOffice just works far better than MS Office ever did.  StarOffice is what MS Office wants to be when it grows up.  Really, what was that ribbon thing?  It was just a practicle joke you played on your customers right.  If only that were the worst of your problems at evil Microsoft but sadly you all are a far more evil company than that.  


May 14. 2009 02:53
Jacob
Wow, that was much more rational, David. You won't get much traction on the "breaking the law means you are evil" front, though. I dare you to name a company that is larger than 100 people that hasn't broken the law at some point. Insofar as laws are broken, penalties must be paid. That's what the rule of law is all about. Unless you're prepared to call every substantial business in the world evil, this argument is a dud.

And then you devolve back into complete irrationality. Hey, I'm not a fan of abortion. I'm a faithful LDS church member and I believe that life begins at conception. If everyone believed the same, then you might have a case, but the simple fact of the matter is that it is a matter of belief. There are enough problems defining the beginning of life that reasonable people (i.e. apparently people not you) can legitimately disagree. Calling someone a murderer just because they believe that life doesn't begin until later isn't helpful and it certainly isn't accurate. Holding your own beliefs to be absolute is simplistic, arrogant, and no basis for argument or reason. Sure, you hold your beliefs absolute, but you've no right to impose your certainty on the rest of the planet just because you are so very, very sure that you are right. That may be a fine foundation for theocratic dictatorship, but it doesn't fly well in a federal republic.

And personally, I think failing students for submitting a paper in a format you don't like is an abuse of authority. I find that immoral. How dare you threaten the future of your students to enforce your prejudice? I have no idea what subject you teach, but apparently lessons in intolerance are provided free of charge.

Finally, what's with the "you" at the end there? Do you think I work at Microsoft? Might want to learn to check your facts (scruffylookingcatherder.com/.../...y-Bad-Self.aspx )


Canada Benny G 
June 3. 2009 14:23
Benny G
"Sure, you hold your beliefs absolute, but you've no right to impose your certainty on the rest of the planet just because you are so very, very sure that you are right."

This is exactly what you're doing Jacob. This is hypocrisy. You are arrogant and hyper rationalistic. You are arguing that breaking the law is ok because 'everybody is doing it.' That is evil. Therefore, you are evil and your opinions on evil are therefore inherently warped. That my friend is logic. And now I've hurt your feelings, so you will attempt to use logic to negate what I've said instead of demonstrating any kind of humility. Why? Because that's what evil people do. How do I know? Because I'm evil too, so I can recognize my own.


Canada Benny G 
June 3. 2009 14:32
Benny G
By the way, there are many rational reasons why LDS is a cult. But evidently you'd prefer to feel right than be right. You'd prefer to assume your conclusions are correct rather than to assume they may not be and examine them. This also is self-deceptive which is also evil.


June 3. 2009 19:51
Jacob
@Benny: You seem to enjoy making ad hominem attacks, but that doesn't actually amount to making a case. Indeed, I'm not seeing any actual argument there. You make statements, but fail to back them up with anything resembling logic. If you care to use logic next time, how about coming up with a definition of "evil" that includes self-deception, breaking a law (apparently any law), arguing a position believed to be correct, and, oh yeah, yourself.

Also: the only one making assumptions here is you. I very seldom assume that my conclusions are correct and when I find that I have made that assumption, I immediately examine both the conclusions and those beliefs that lead to them. I never cease to be amazed at those who assume that I'm LDS because I haven't thought it through. Talk about arrogant...

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